When folks think of graffiti and its roots, their minds tend to immediately evoke images of the East Coast, most specifically, New York City. But in speaking of New York’s graffiti kings like Lee, Seen, Cope 2 and Erni; you must, in that same breath, mention one of the founding fathers of West Coast graffiti, Los Angeles’ own Chaz Bojorquez.

Humbly and more than happily, Chaz schooled me. From history to styles to hip hop and then some…

To me, aside from being one of the ‘pioneers’ of graffiti, you also seem to be a student as well as a keeper of its history. Maybe you could give me a short lesson on graffiti and its origins as you’ve see it…

Well, looking from Los Angeles, we have two histories with the East and West Coasts. And we have our own sense of pride out here on the West Coast. Even though everyone is influenced by the New York style, the ‘hip hop style’ as its called, it was in some ways imported; and it really doesn’t speak to us as Latinos. Hip hop is not really culturally based, so they say…It does cross color lines and all of that, and has a lot to do with the New York flavor; which is a Puerto Rican, black and New York ‘hueros’ style. They have a whole different kind of history because it’s hard to live there. They’re always in jackets and in subways and everything else like that. And we’re over here in shorts, driving cars, going to the beach and we can go up twelve months out of the year. That’s a big difference, they can’t do that over there.

Another difference [between East and West Coast,] is that in New York the idea of tagging is about the ‘me’ mentality. It’s about self-identification and it wasn’t so much about a crew or culture. It was more about individuals kind of going up and marking their own identities. But here on the West Coast, in the ‘cholo style’ tradition, one person would write for the whole gang. So it was more about the ‘we’ mentality. We used only old English style letters [we called it old English, but its really German gothic and even some Celtic designs too.] And preservers of this cholo style now, are mainly in the prisons. You know you see it just as much on skin more than on walls today, that is a Latino reality. Old English has had a long historical influence in East Los Angeles. Old English was always painted on our low rider scene out here. Even the ‘Hollywood-ites,’ like Snoop Dogg [who uses a low rider] and he conjures; Latino imagery, and he’s hoppin’ and bouncing around. And it’s always in a convertible, so its part of the beach scene too. It’s about the sun being out and the palm trees and the babes in the bikinis.

But I give New York all of my respect, because 99% of the graffiti that the world knows is ‘New York’ style. But they kind of dropped it in the late 70’s and early eighties. And Europe picked it up. I don’t ever say anything bad about the New Yorkers because they just have so much talent out there. They are incredible writers.

But here on the West Coast, our tradition goes back to the 1920’s when shoeshine boys used to tag on Olvera Street [first in L.A.] to declare and claim their corners. They would write their names with dabbers on the sides of the walls. And in the late 30’s and the 40’s, there were the ‘Zootsuiters.’ And that was a style that came out of Harlem, and was made famous with the black guys; guys like Cab Calloway and jazz and all that. But if you look at the Mexican movies, there was ‘Tin tan’ and ‘Cantinflas’ and even in Hollywood, Bugs Bunny was in zootsuits for a little while. So that whole flavor out here on the West Coast was defined in that kind of renegade style. And the Latinos had their zootsuit style. They had their own talk called ‘Calo’ [old Bullfighter street slang.] They were doing their own nicknames, and they picked up that old English style writing. Graffiti was more about doing a public announcement; about writing a roll call on the wall with everybody’s name. It wasn’t about one person tagging here and going across the street tagging and then going across the city and tagging. It was about defining the territory of who you were; Latino. How many are you; we’re thirty strong. How long have you been around; you would say ‘veteranos’ or ‘pee wees’ like grades for the different ages. And then; where you’re from, and you’ll put down; 18th Street or Avenues, something like that, or White Fence, or Dog Town, or Alpine Street. So it was about defining where you were from, not who you are. So it came from a whole different kind of perspective, it was about having a lot of group pride. But in doing that, we kept it in the hood. We never exported it, you never talked about it. And a change came around 1985 with the first Mac computers and I guess by the early 90’s, people started getting their websites. And it’s only been recently that people have realized that there was graffiti happening out here from an earlier time than New York. And it’s not really as respected. And you know something, it’s OK, because cholo graffiti is a fringe graffiti from East Los Angeles. It’s a graffiti by us, for us.

Almost as if it’s meant to be like that…

It’s meant to be like that. Because one of the disadvantages of the world’s graffiti right now is with the websites and everything: everybody’s looking over everybody else’s shoulder. You can pick up a graffiti magazine in South Africa, Thailand, Australia, Canada, New York, or Europe and see that they’re all beginning to look alike. A lot of the styles, they’re picking up from each other. And it’s great that we have this world culture; but we’re beginning to mesh a lot of the imagery. But the cholo stays pure because a lot of it is still in the prisons not in magazines. The words you use are earned. And you don’t pick up your tag name, it has to be given to you.

As you were saying that in the late 70’s and early eighties it was more New York. And from the 90’s into 2000, it’s been more Europe. But it almost seems that there is a resurgence, a new popularity of the cholo style. Because you see so much more of the cholo style in peoples work these days…

Yeah. Because people who are into graffiti are going back into their history, they want to know about this. And they’ll see one cholo logo, in one magazine and they’ll say, ‘What’s that!’ And then they’ll start looking it up. And once that they find that it’s coming from East L.A., then, they start realizing that there are quite a few writers out here. But the old school, the O.G.s, the veteranos, doing the cholo style; there’s only just a few of us; but our influence is being picked up by younger writers. They’re using lines that are more gothic/cholo stylings. I’m the oldest writer, but I didn’t invent cholo graffiti. I continued the heritage. I added my flavor to it with the brush rather than the spray can [because that was like painting with my foot, I hated painting with the spray can.] I needed to control both edges of the line like a marker and I didn’t feel like I had good can control. Cuz there was only one tip and only one color [black] back then.

So you were painting almost even before spray cans then?

Well the spray can came in probably about 1952 or 53,’ in LA, with the little tester spray cans, used to paint plastic model slot cars. I was born in 1949, I’m 53 now. So I started drawing graffiti when I was 19, in about 68,’ but I didn’t hit the streets until 1969.

In my notes earlier, I was writing about some of the legends of graffiti; Lee and Seen and Cope 2 and those guys from the East Coast. But you were probably writing before they even hit their first train! It doesn’t seem like people realize that about you…

Who started first isn’t the point. Philadelphia started tagging before New York. And I have heard that in Edinburg, Scotland also had an early form of tagging that also resembles L.A. In the beginning when I was tagging, I was putting ‘Chingaso’ all around the Arroyo Seco River walls [all rivers in L.A. have concrete walls,] which was the branch of the L.A. River that goes up into Highland Park; which was the first community in all of Los Angeles. And there are areas around there that we go back to with photographers and anthropologists and try to rediscover some of those old writing spots. And if you think like a writer, you can find some of those old spots. We’ve traced some old English style letters, a few Western styles with seriphs, to 1914! We’ve gone to places where I used to go as a little kid. We used to go play in the street sewers and there used to be tags there before I was born. And they used to ‘smoke’ write them with their Zippo lighters or with candles. And going back there recently with a crew we found graffiti tags from the 1940s and 1950s; a lot of 1950s, which INSPIRED me! I get real excited about those early forms of graffiti.

What are you going to do with all of the photos, publish a book?

We’re probably going to do something, but first we have to have some kind of permanent documentation. And were not trying to tell anyone that we started graffiti…It’s about having pride in our own heritage and styles, something that no one can really deny us.

It’s strange because I always hear everyone involved in hip hop preaching how important it is to know your elders and having an understanding of where everything came from. But really it’s not like that.

I’ll tell you, hip hop is all about the money. And what motivates it? It’s the music industry because they’re the only ones that make and have money. But when they say that hip hop has the four elements of breaking, rapping, deejaying and graf; I think they could spend a little bit more time respecting graffiti. The only time all four elements are used, graffiti is just the background of someone’s video. Writers only make a living by making art or clothes design. When you watch ‘MTV Cribs’ and you see a big rappers home and it looks like the furniture came from Ikea, with no paintings on the walls, then there’s something wrong here. They spend all of their hard-earned money on entertainment rooms and audio studios. They’re only looking at music, which should be their sole focus. But I think graffiti has yet to have its time. It needs to be more appreciated. Graffiti is music that you look at!

I wanted to talk about your influences. I mean obviously you see the cholo style influence in your work. But there are other influences I see in your style; like the Asian style of writing letters, even calligraphy. And I guess those things all come together to make your own unique hand style.

You know being in Los Angeles is our greatest blessing. Were right in between Europe; our European heritage. But we are also influenced by the Asian sense of spirituality and artistic mentality. So were right in the middle of those two cultures. I also claim my American native blood. We claim this land in the name of Atzlan, our ancestral homeland that includes the southwest United States. The very first reason I tagged was to pledge my allegiance to my American Latino heritage [we call ourselves Chicanos.] I first tagged a roll call list of all of my friends. Being Chicano is my biggest influence in all of my work. But my stuff is also Asian influenced. I studied calligraphy from kung fu Master Yun Chung Chiang and this was in about 1968. And Master Chiang studied under Pu Ju, who is the brother of the last emperor of China. So it wasn’t so much about learning about the calligraphy line. But what the line meant. What calligraphy did for you as an artist was to teach you discipline and preparation and visualization of exactly what you really want that line to say. Because for us, being non-Asian, we can look at an Oriental scroll and not know what the letters say. But if you teach yourself the philosophy of line, you can tell the intent or the purpose and what those letters are saying just through the styling of the line. Is it powerful like a tiger? Is there a waterfall with birds? Are they taking about love? Are they talking about war, or the mountains? strength and beauty…These are the essence of what I try to put into my letters. My letters are pretty simple, but my whole foundation is based on strength and beauty.

Also having been raised in L.A. I have a lot of Hollywood in me. Because if you look at my paintings, there is a story involved, like the movies. There are characters, who is involved in the story…And I’ll write their names. There’s the scenario, the stage, whether it’s gonna be a roll call or it’s gonna be a battle with these words, is it a historical event? Or I’ll have some theater in there because the letters will be all bottom lit, like a stage. And then I also try to make some adventure happen…But most important, a complete story with a conclusion. From my very first tag, it was about saying something important, so I would spray it clean and straight. Now being older I ask…why is this image important? Why would these letters this painting more important than a Daim, Mear, Dose or a Saber? I guess it’s not whose work is more important, but the most important is what makes uniquely different. But at the same time, I love to keep the connection between us, connect the dots. There is a huge, worldwide graffiti movement that was not here a decade ago, and everyone is apart of it now. Why is my art still called graffiti and theirs is called graffiti? Is it the stylings or a West Coast flavor, a sense of color, the collaboration?

I tell ya’ all were about here is having fun. But how about the money!? [laughs]

Like you said, that’s the one thing within the four elements that gets ignored when it comes to money or respect…

Money can pervert. In some ways I have not been very successful in the sense that I don’t sell a lot. Because people like my work or they don’t get my work. But I feel as long as I’m struggling; somehow I get a sense that I’m doing the right thing. Because in my work I’ve never compromised. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not at all poor, I own a lot of property, but I think that you can not really compare good graffiti with money in your pocket. Commercial graffiti, looks commercial.

I’ve been lucky enough to use my skills. I’ve traveled around the world for three years. And I’ve been to 36 countries, studying letters and hand stylings and culture. My recent paintings deal with the collaboration of cultures, not between black and white people, those are old issues because those two cultures are so similar and tied together. Generally, they speak the same language, they have similar jobs and work ethics, they go to the same colleges. Where the American Latinos, the Chicanos, the Hispanics, whatever they call us…Even though we’re Americans, we speak a different language, we have different kinds of foods, we have different work ethics, different kind of music and a different sense of pride. Anglo and Afro Americans don’t think about not being American. But we as Latinos always think about our Americanism. Our ‘Latinoism’ deals with that native blood in us. So we’re a different kind of Americans, and when I need respect I get it from my own writer friends here in Los Angeles. You don’t get respect unless you give respect, and we’re strong on the West Coast. It’s not about the money, its about blowing eachother away with letters and images ‘drive-by’ style. We do it in the streets, galleries and clubs. So my recent work deals with the whole Chino/Latino thing. Like I go to clubs and there are all these Asian guys with Latina girlfriends and vice versa. They got the same Honda low rider cars, they eat the same food, they eat rice and beans and they’ll have Asian food. They just kind of mix it up. It’s a whole different flavor out here, I’m real proud of it; I always promote it and push it. All of that says a lot about the content of my work. It’s about border issues; you know, L.A., West Coast, beach, surf, skate…We’re American Latinos.

Out of all graffiti writers I can think of, you probably have the longest career. And you’re still active. What is it that keeps you going?

I started too early and there wasn’t a younger generation of writers behind me. It was just traditional, territorial gang writing here on the West Coast and it still continues today. It took about 16 years, around 1985 before New York style graffiti started in L.A., or so. Actually the young men that I deal with right now, I’m their father’s age. And the younger ones, I could be their grandparents age, weird, I don’t get it. When I went to New York and met the New York old school writers over there, I was in my late forties and they were in their mid forties or so. And when I saw them with their gray hair and their wrinkles and all of that; I was so moved that I connected with writers who have gone through all of that shit, because at this age your mentality has changed. You don’t have that anger. You just have the mentality that you survived, you know, like a Vietnam vet. Because that was my era, so when I see these older writers, I have so much respect for them-Cocoa, Bama, Futura, Phase Case, Stay High and Snake and even some of the younger ones like Lady Pink, Lee, Erni and Mare. But then when I’m out here on the West Coast, what’s kept me going is the ‘youngbloods.’ Hip hop kind of found me in around 89’ or 90,’ when hip hop started coming strong, and all of the graffiti writers were like 17, 18, 19 years old. And they went back into their history. And they started asking me to show and write with them and I started asking them to show and paint with me. Now many of those same writers have galleries, magazines, clothes shops and music studios. We found out that we have so much in common, we don’t even look at each others age. We see each other as a force. So I tell these guys now that we don’t need warriors anymore, we need an army because everyone is strong now. I feel that I’m part of an incredible, once in a lifetime art movement; and its getting bigger. I lucked out.

How many years then has your career spanned…

I started in 1969. So thirty-three years of doing graffiti. And that’s doing all kinds of graffiti; tagging, working on graffiti movies, doing all kinds of logos for products, silk screen prints, paintings, murals, t-shirts…anything that’s applicable. I’ve painted lowrider cars and tattoos [there are close to a thousand men in prison that have my skull tattooed.] Most recently, I did a large digital vinyl print for a background on a ‘Nelle’ and Harrison Ford movie and some new skateboard designs too. I guess I feel fortunate to still keep on doing what I’m doing, while the rest of the world has reinvented itself.

I have also had an equally successful career in graphic arts [recently doing a logo for Cheech Marin,] as a Chicano artist [recently showing in ‘Chicano Now’ at the Smithsonian Museum and I also designed a CD for poet Luis Rodriguez] and I also show with the ‘low brow’ artists of the West Coast [Juxtapoz Magazine artist show, Track 16 gallery in October.] And I am currently showing skull artwork in a downtown Tokyo gallery. And also, I was involved in helping to organize a big show of ‘Black Velvet’ paitings that just opened in Tijuana, Mexico and back to Italy next month, I’m always busy. My career has been around for more than thirty years, but I feel that I’m just starting. Willem de Kooning said that you really don’t start to paint until you reach 60!

So you influence these younger guys, but who are the guys today that still influence you?

I admire all of them; the Europeans, the New York guys and all of the guys out here on the West Coast.

My earlier influences were people like Greg Griffin, some painters like Vermeer; his sense of clarity and perspective, and a purity in his sense of scope and mentality. The Japanese print makers of a hundred years ago are like gods to me. But also Hendrix and Santana you know, those are big influences. The graffiti writers, I like our gang out here; you know Mear and Saber and Abel…